ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

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Hael
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ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Hael » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:34 pm

Interesting conversation on Twitter #McCann regarding the translation of the official police files.

https://twitter.com/alchemies666 on #McCann

Just one of the many morsels to be found there.
#McCann ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files. @annaesse @mccannpjfiles
Anna Andress ('Anna Esse') translated a section of the PJ case files, ostensibly a request from the PJ for a warrant to search the McCann's villa and hire car with the dogs, which appears on the Eddie & Keela page (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm).

I flagged up this translation as it doesn't have a watermarked page from the original DVD release next to it on the online page, as is standard with others.

It also states it is 'translated from the French', which leads me to wonder what document was being translated. I have asked Anna for more info about this, but she has not answered.

Polite and reasonable Winnower kindly helped me find another place on the online site which DOES have the watermarked document which was the original source of Anna Andress' translation. That page on the online site (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm#c1) has a translation next to the watermarked document, as is standard. This translation has been done by 'ALBYM' and I can confirm 'ALBYM's' transaltion is accurate.

Comparing the two translations out of interest, to see the tiny differences between the translations done by different people, has highlighted what I believe to be a fairly major discrepancy.

In the version of the page translated by 'Anna Esse', a line has been inserted WHICH DOES NOT APPEAR ON THE ORIGINAL PORTUGUESE DOCUMENT, refering to the crime of murder. A charge mentioned nowhere else in the files, as far as I can ascertain.

"It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code."

I have asked the translator multiple times where this line has come from, and why it has been inserted in this strange translation 'from the French', but answers have not been forthcoming. It may well be that whatever French document Andress was translating from did have this erroneous line in it, and she has translated in good faith. However, until she answers me regarding where the line came from, I can only conclude Anna Andress inserted this line herself, for the nefarious reason of promotuing the idea the PJ suspected the McCanns of MURDER, even though there is no textual basis for this in the PJ files.

I will ask Anna Andress again:
What is the source of the French document that was translated here?
Why does this appear in the online files without any watermarked document, even though it is sourced, and translated by AMBYM, elsewhere.
Why has this line been added?

To 'Pamalam'; will you remove this page from the online document if Anna cannot provide an official PJ primary source for her added line?

Finally, does anyone on #McCann know whether a deliberate manipulation of an official police document, with the intention to mislead, is a criminal offence, or just libel? #GetALawyer
The trolls funding a shamed coppers right to lie about Kate and Gerry McCann are a new level of weirdo.[omitted] they may have destroyed all hope for good.Talking up conspiracy theories is one thing.Wrecking the search for an abducted child is another.-The Sun

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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:31 am

I remember that. Somehow "homicidio" (PT) / "homicide" (FR) got translated as "murder".
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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scoobydoo
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by scoobydoo » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:08 am

From what I can gather an entire extra line has been added that means it is impossible for it to be excused as bad translation. It has also been added in a copy of a police document. I do not know about Portuguese law but in the UK it could be libel but also a criminal offence such as forgery .

There have been other issues with the online files, such as bad translations, and other things added in so they appear to be official files but are in fact some musings of a random person. But this is the first time I have seen that an actual police document has been deliberately tampered with.

This is why the actual police who have the real files and paid for translators don't think relying on an underclass of Facebook warriors solving the case is a good idea.

ETA I seem to recall something hinting at this with the Gaspar files. A troll contacted police demanding something or the other and police replied referring to knowledge of these statements allegedly by the Gaspar's that are online.

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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:50 am

Hmmm. Winnower appears to have found the wrong page. There are two documents in the files that are similar but not identical.

The one below does indeed mention the possibility of "homicidio" as per article 131 (towards the bottom). What I find it be incorrect is that "homicidio" does not necessarily mean murder.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P8/08_VO ... e_2072.jpg
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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Hael
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Hael » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:26 am

It looks to me, that although some translation errors are small mistakes, others do appear to be deliberate.
The trolls funding a shamed coppers right to lie about Kate and Gerry McCann are a new level of weirdo.[omitted] they may have destroyed all hope for good.Talking up conspiracy theories is one thing.Wrecking the search for an abducted child is another.-The Sun

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catkins
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by catkins » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:32 am

Hael wrote:It looks to me, that although some translation errors are small mistakes, others do appear to be deliberate.

Surely any "mistakes" is like tampering with the statements.....and those involved should be investigated.

No wonder back at the start the Tabloids ran with awful claims against the McCanns.... :Bang_head
Madeleine McCann- Abducted May 2007 from Praia Da Luz, Algarve, Portugal.
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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:44 am

To be fair, I can't recall any mistakes that stood out for me as being deliberate for the moment.
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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Hael
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Hael » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:47 am

catkins wrote:
Hael wrote:It looks to me, that although some translation errors are small mistakes, others do appear to be deliberate.

Surely any "mistakes" is like tampering with the statements.....and those involved should be investigated.

No wonder back at the start the Tabloids ran with awful claims against the McCanns.... :Bang_head
They should never have been seen as "statements" in the first place. They were never the official translations and should never have been given the status of 'translated official police files'.

Yes, I can see valid concerns raised as, it does look like "tampering".

It would also appear that rules that govern Portuguese judicial secrecy are just as blurred as those on official document copyright.
The trolls funding a shamed coppers right to lie about Kate and Gerry McCann are a new level of weirdo.[omitted] they may have destroyed all hope for good.Talking up conspiracy theories is one thing.Wrecking the search for an abducted child is another.-The Sun

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Hael
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Hael » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:49 am

https://twitter.com/alchemies666 on #McCann
In the version of the page translated by 'Anna Esse', a line has been inserted WHICH DOES NOT APPEAR ON THE ORIGINAL PORTUGUESE DOCUMENT, refering to the crime of murder. A charge mentioned nowhere else in the files, as far as I can ascertain.
Deliberate??
The trolls funding a shamed coppers right to lie about Kate and Gerry McCann are a new level of weirdo.[omitted] they may have destroyed all hope for good.Talking up conspiracy theories is one thing.Wrecking the search for an abducted child is another.-The Sun

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catkins
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by catkins » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:58 am

Hael wrote:https://twitter.com/alchemies666 on #McCann
In the version of the page translated by 'Anna Esse', a line has been inserted WHICH DOES NOT APPEAR ON THE ORIGINAL PORTUGUESE DOCUMENT, refering to the crime of murder. A charge mentioned nowhere else in the files, as far as I can ascertain.
Deliberate??
I saw this unfold yesterday on twitter......I must say....I was incredulous when it seems that her excuse was that she had copied it from a Belgian source/Blog thing.....and....wait for it......Levy :s_omg Those of us following the case from the start......would never take anything put out by him as true.

I mean was the question of why (as was claimed at the time).....he happened to be the one connected with the filming of the Dog Videos? Who commissioned them and him?

If this important fact was sorted then I must have missed it......so I'm happy to be enlightened on the matter.
Madeleine McCann- Abducted May 2007 from Praia Da Luz, Algarve, Portugal.
DCI Redwood of Scotland Yard - stated that Madeleine could still be found - alive.
https://www.facebook.com/Official.Find. ... ign?_rdr=p

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Hael
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Hael » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:03 am

catkins wrote:
Hael wrote:https://twitter.com/alchemies666 on #McCann
In the version of the page translated by 'Anna Esse', a line has been inserted WHICH DOES NOT APPEAR ON THE ORIGINAL PORTUGUESE DOCUMENT, refering to the crime of murder. A charge mentioned nowhere else in the files, as far as I can ascertain.
Deliberate??
I saw this unfold yesterday on twitter......I must say....I was incredulous when it seems that her excuse was that she had copied it from a Belgian source/Blog thing.....and....wait for it......Levy :s_omg Those of us following the case from the start......would never take anything put out by him as true.

I mean was the question of why (as was claimed at the time).....he happened to be the one connected with the filming of the Dog Videos? Who commissioned them and him?

If this important fact was sorted then I must have missed it......so I'm happy to be enlightened on the matter.
I don't think they have been sorted as yet. There are still questions than need answers regarding the involvement of Levy, the dog video's and the involvement of other known anti McCann campaigners. But ... if I too have missed it, I'll also welcome any enlightenment.
The trolls funding a shamed coppers right to lie about Kate and Gerry McCann are a new level of weirdo.[omitted] they may have destroyed all hope for good.Talking up conspiracy theories is one thing.Wrecking the search for an abducted child is another.-The Sun

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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:11 am

That line IS there, just not on the page that people seem to be looking at. See my link further up.

My objection is that "homicidio" got translated as "murder" - which isn't correct.
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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scoobydoo
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by scoobydoo » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:16 am

Let's be right about it though, no one has any idea what I real and what is fake on those documents. Translation of legal documents is a highly specialist skill it requires a legal degree and certified fluency in both languages to a very very high level . Translating legal English into everyday English is a skill too not something an average native speaker could do too well. There is a reason why translators and interpreters have to be specially trained in their fields they can't just speak two languages and become a translator.

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Hael
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Hael » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:18 am

Carana wrote:That line IS there, just not on the page that people seem to be looking at. See my link further up.

My objection is that "homicidio" got translated as "murder" - which isn't correct.
So if the viewer had been looking at the wrong document, why when asked, "I have asked the translator multiple times where this line has come from, and why it has been inserted in this strange translation 'from the French', but answers have not been forthcoming", did she not indicate that the wrong document was being viewed?
The trolls funding a shamed coppers right to lie about Kate and Gerry McCann are a new level of weirdo.[omitted] they may have destroyed all hope for good.Talking up conspiracy theories is one thing.Wrecking the search for an abducted child is another.-The Sun

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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:23 am

Hael wrote:
Carana wrote:That line IS there, just not on the page that people seem to be looking at. See my link further up.

My objection is that "homicidio" got translated as "murder" - which isn't correct.
So if the viewer had been looking at the wrong document, why when asked, "I have asked the translator multiple times where this line has come from, and why it has been inserted in this strange translation 'from the French', but answers have not been forthcoming", did she not indicate that the wrong document was being viewed?
No idea...
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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catkins
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by catkins » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:36 am

And......were the French translations.....PT to French......or PT....to English.....then to French?

You could see how mistakes could easily occur...........with the odd word.....

Peeps we knew who lived there for over 30 years....told us that there are PT words that just don't have an English equivalent....and vice a versa.....
Madeleine McCann- Abducted May 2007 from Praia Da Luz, Algarve, Portugal.
DCI Redwood of Scotland Yard - stated that Madeleine could still be found - alive.
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by scoobydoo » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:59 pm

It does look like stuff has been added and I do remember suspicions of that with the Gaspar statements when the police referred to them as either alleged or attributed to and on the internet.

It's also dodgy as hell to claim you have translated the pj files into English when in fact you have found a blog with French translations of them and translated them. There is a reason why the McCanns and police had to pay for translations. It's not a job any old biddy can do.

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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by catkins » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:36 pm

Carana wrote:That line IS there, just not on the page that people seem to be looking at. See my link further up.

My objection is that "homicidio" got translated as "murder" - which isn't correct.

Just saw this on twitter.......Message for Carana.. :s_biggrin


The Jester's Tear @alchemies666
47m


Carana from STM - the ref is on the doc FROM the prosecutor. They've added it to the doc FROM the PJ #mccann I knew about the other doc ;)




@alchemies666

Carana STM-This isnt an issue of mistrans wrd.Those r 2 v different docs.1 has been added 2 by French blog, & then put in the files #McCann



Carana STM - The doc u r thinking of is frm prosecutor allowing warrant. the wording is totally different #mccann
mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPEC…
Madeleine McCann- Abducted May 2007 from Praia Da Luz, Algarve, Portugal.
DCI Redwood of Scotland Yard - stated that Madeleine could still be found - alive.
https://www.facebook.com/Official.Find. ... ign?_rdr=p

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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:54 pm

catkins wrote:
Carana wrote:That line IS there, just not on the page that people seem to be looking at. See my link further up.

My objection is that "homicidio" got translated as "murder" - which isn't correct.

Just saw this on twitter.......Message for Carana.. :s_biggrin


The Jester's Tear @alchemies666
47m


Carana from STM - the ref is on the doc FROM the prosecutor. They've added it to the doc FROM the PJ #mccann I knew about the other doc ;)




@alchemies666

Carana STM-This isnt an issue of mistrans wrd.Those r 2 v different docs.1 has been added 2 by French blog, & then put in the files #McCann



Carana STM - The doc u r thinking of is frm prosecutor allowing warrant. the wording is totally different #mccann
mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPEC…
I'll have another look tomorrow, but, yes, there does appear to be an issue.
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:45 am

Message back to Jester

The Jester's Tear‏ @alchemies666 17h17 hours ago

Carana STM-This isnt an issue of mistrans wrd.Those r 2 v different docs.1 has been added 2 by French blog, & then put in the files #McCann
0 replies . 0 retweets 1 like
The Jester's Tear‏ @alchemies666 17h17 hours ago

Carana from STM - the ref is on the doc FROM the prosecutor. They've added it to the doc FROM the PJ #mccann I knew about the other doc ;)
0 replies . 0 retweets 0 likes


Hi there ;)

I've checked back again. Yes, you're right: that line got added to the wrong document. It does exist, but in the other one.
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Carana
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Re: ALTERED LEGAL DOCUMENT in online PJ Files

Post by Carana » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:46 am

The "document" translated into English from French appears to be based on something somewhere between a translation and a summary - it's not a faithful translation of the official documents. Agree on that.

However, despite the fact that it appears in the wrong place, what bothers me more is still the fact that "homicidio" got translated as murder, and keeps getting copied as such.

I still have the 2007 version of the Penal Code (downloaded as a PDF):



Parte especial TÍTULO I
Dos crimes contra as pessoas CAPÍTULO I
Dos crimes contra a vida

Artigo 131.o Homicídio
Quem matar outra pessoa é punido com pena de prisão de 8 a 16 anos.


Artigo 132.o
Homicídio qualificado
1 - Se a morte for produzida em circunstâncias que revelem especial censurabilidade ou perversidade, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de 12 a 25 anos.
2 - É susceptível de revelar a especial censurabilidade ou perversidade a que se refere o número anterior, entre outras, a circunstância de o agente:
a) Ser descendente ou ascendente, adoptado ou adoptante, da vítima;
b) Praticar o facto contra cônjuge, ex-cônjuge, pessoa de outro ou do mesmo sexo com quem o agente mantenha ou tenha mantido uma relação análoga à dos cônjuges, ainda que sem coabitação, ou contra progenitor de descendente comum em 1.o grau;
c) Praticar o facto contra pessoa particularmente indefesa, em razão de idade, deficiência, doença ou gravidez;
d) Empregar tortura ou acto de crueldade para aumentar o sofrimento da vítima;
e) Ser determinado por avidez, pelo prazer de matar ou de causar sofrimento, para excitação ou para satisfação do instinto sexual ou por qualquer motivo torpe ou fútil;
f) Ser determinado por ódio racial, religioso, político ou gerado pela cor, origem étnica ou nacional, pelo sexo ou pela orientação sexual da vítima;
65
ASSEMBLEIA DA REPÚBLICA
g) Ter em vista preparar, facilitar, executar ou encobrir um outro crime, facilitar a fuga ou assegurar a impunidade do agente de um crime;
h) Praticar o facto juntamente com, pelo menos, mais duas pessoas ou utilizar meio particularmente perigoso ou que se traduza na prática de crime de perigo comum;
i) Utilizar veneno ou qualquer outro meio insidioso;
j) Agir com frieza de ânimo, com reflexão sobre os meios empregados ou ter
persistido na intenção de matar por mais de vinte e quatro horas;
a) Praticar o facto contra membro de órgão de soberania, do Conselho de Estado, Representante da República, magistrado, membro de órgão do governo próprio das Regiões Autónomas, Provedor de Justiça, governador civil, membro de órgão das autarquias locais ou de serviço ou organismo que exerça autoridade pública, comandante de força pública, jurado, testemunha, advogado, todos ao que exerçam funções no âmbito de procedimentos de resolução extrajudicial de conflitos, agente das forças ou serviços de segurança, funcionário público, civil ou militar, agente de força pública ou cidadão encarregado de serviço público, docente, examinador ou membro de comunidade escolar, ou ministro de culto religioso, juiz ou árbitro desportivo sob a jurisdição das federações desportivas, no exercício das suas funções ou por causa delas;
b) Ser funcionário e praticar o facto com grave abuso de autoridade.

Artigo 133.o
Homicídio privilegiado
Quem matar outra pessoa dominado por compreensível emoção violenta, compaixão, desespero ou motivo de relevante valor social ou moral, que diminuam sensivelmente a sua culpa, é punido com pena de prisão de 1 a 5 anos.

Artigo 134.o Homicídio a pedido da vítima
66
ASSEMBLEIA DA REPÚBLICA
1 - Quem matar outra pessoa determinado por pedido sério, instante e expresso que ela lhe tenha feito é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos.
2 - A tentativa é punível.

Artigo 135.o
Incitamento ou ajuda ao suicídio
1 - Quem incitar outra pessoa a suicidar-se, ou lhe prestar ajuda para esse fim, é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos, se o suicídio vier efectivamente a ser tentado ou a consumar-se.
2 - Se a pessoa incitada ou a quem se presta ajuda for menor de 16 anos ou tiver, por qualquer motivo, a sua capacidade de valoração ou de determinação sensivelmente diminuída, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de 1 a 5 anos.

Artigo 136.o
Infanticídio
A mãe que matar o filho durante ou logo após o parto e estando ainda sob a sua influência perturbadora, é punida com pena de prisão de 1 a 5 anos.

Artigo 137.o
Homicídio por negligência
1 - Quem matar outra pessoa por negligência é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos ou com pena de multa.
2 - Em caso de negligência grosseira, o agente é punido com pena de prisão até 5 anos.

Artigo 138.o Exposição ou abandono
1 - Quem colocar em perigo a vida de outra pessoa:
a) Expondo-a em lugar que a sujeite a uma situação de que ela, só por si, não possa defender-se; ou
67
ASSEMBLEIA DA REPÚBLICA
b) Abandonando-a sem defesa, sempre que ao agente coubesse o dever de a guardar, vigiar ou assistir;
é punido com pena de prisão de 1 a 5 anos.
2 - Se o facto for praticado por ascendente ou descendente, adoptante ou adoptado da vítima, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de 2 a 5 anos.
3 - Se do facto resultar:
a) Ofensa à integridade física grave, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de 2 a 8 anos;
b) A morte, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de 3 a 10 anos.

Artigo 139.o
Propaganda do suicídio
Quem, por qualquer modo, fizer propaganda ou publicidade de produto, objecto ou método preconizado como meio para produzir a morte, de forma adequada a provocar suicídio, é punido com pena de prisão até 2 anos ou com pena de multa até 240 dias.
"A professor of mine used to say 'I have as a pet a coprophagic beetle, who eats only dung. His antennae quiver when he detects the presence of his food.'" - Edison, English-language Wikipedia Admin

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